Smith O Brien's attempt to reform Poor Law, March 1843

POOR-LAW (IRELAND).

HC Deb 23 March 1843 vol 67 cc1347-405

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Smith_O%27Brien

He did not question the propriety of diminishing the number of assistant-commissioners, but he asked why Dr. Phelan was the individual selected for removal, without any prospect of future employment, and with- 1357 out any consideration for the circumstances under which he was appointed? At the present moment there were eleven assistant-commissioners in Ireland. Of these, six are English, five Irish. Of the five Irish assistant-commissioners, two are Roman Catholics. Dr. Phelan is one of the Roman Catholics, and there being at least three assistant-commissioners, junior, in the time of their appointment to him, why had he been selected for removal? Let it be remembered that Dr. Phelan was appointed on account of his ability and knowledge of the condition of the poor in Ireland. When appointed to the office of assistant-commissioner, he was in receipt of 200l. a-year, derived from three public institutions in the town of Clonmel, independently of a good private practice. No intimation appears to have been given to him that his tenure of office was to be of a more temporary character than that of his Colleagues. He and his family are now cast upon the world, without any consideration of his peculiar claims or past services. His constituents had directed him to ask on what grounds this had been done? Was it because Dr. Phelan was once a liberal in politics? Was it because he is a Roman Catholic? Was it because he is an Irishman?—He knew that the Government would state that it was not for any of these reasons; but he was bound to declare, that it was the opinion of a large portion of society in Ireland, that if he had been a Conservative—if he had been a Protestant—if he had been an Englishman, he would not have been so treated. The case of Doctor Phelan, who was much respected by the middle classes in Ireland, had excited general sympathy. Since his removed had been intimated, thirteen or fourteen boards of guardians had passed resolutions expressive of their esteem and approval of his conduct as an administrator of the poor-laws, as well as of their regret that he was about to be removed; and it was only an act of justice to the Conservative gentry of Ireland to say, that they had been as forward as any other class of society in this expression of sympathy. Under these circumstances, he hoped the Government would induce the commissioners to reconsider their determination, and not add to the other causes of their unpopularity the charge of having sacrificed a deserving individual to their caprice or injustice.


The next point with regard to which legislation was imperatively required, was that clause in the poor-law which throws the charge of the pauper's maintenance upon the electoral division in which he has been resident. Not only is a different rule with respect to the interpretation of the word "residence" adopted in the different boards of guardians, but even in the same board the. definition varies from week to week. Cases of the following kind constantly arise:—A person has lived twenty years in one electoral division, and a month in another, after which he presents himself for relief to the board of guardians—to which electoral division is he chargeable? From an opinion given by the late law officers of the Crown, it would appear that he is chargeable to the electoral division in which he has last taken up his residence with intent to remain there. It was unnecessary to point out to the House what an encouragement such an interpretation gives to the clearance of estates by landlords desirous to avert the charge arising from pauperism

It needed no argument to prove that those who are on the verge of destitution ought not to be subjected to any demand for poor rate; but it was a more difficult question to determine where the limit of exemption shall be fixed. The noble Lord must take care, lest in endeavouring to afford relief to the humbler classes in one way he, by the same measure, inflicts a greater evil upon them of a different kind. If the landlords be made liable for the rate upon small holdings, it was greatly to be feared that the tendency to consolidate holdings, and to get rid of the small occupiers—which 1361 tendency is already much too strong—would derive from such an enactment accumulated force. Upon the whole he (Mr. O'Brien) was inclined to think that it would be better to draw such a line of exemption as would relieve the labouring classes from liability to poor rate, and to make no demand upon the possessors of the property rated below an annual value of a certain amount, whether those possessors be landlords or occupiers. The tendency of such a measure would undoubtedly be to increase to a small amount the burden upon larger holdings, and to give a trifling advantage to those who leased their lands in small tenements; but in the present circumstances of Ireland, this tendency would have a very salutary effect in counteracting the disposition which now so generally prevails to consolidate the smaller holdings into large farms by the expulsion of the population. The exemption of smaller holdings from the rate will also take from the ranks of those who now resist the collection of the rate a great majority of the population, and throw their influence into the opposite direction in support of a law from which they may, in case of extreme necessity, obtain relief, but which in no case would impose upon them any burden

And, with regard to the expense, compare the relative cost of out-door and in-door relief. A poor widow, in Ireland, with five children, would consider herself well provided for, if she were secured an allowance of 3s. per week, with the chance of such little earnings as she might pick up at home. You compel her to go into the workhouse, and her family there costs at least 2s. 6d. per head per week, or 15s. for the whole family—so that, by the substitution of out-door for in-door relief, in cases of this kind, you would be enabled to assist, at the same expense, five times as many persons as the workhouse enables you now to relieve

It had long been a source of pride to him to have been an earnest advocate for a provision for the poor, when very few were found disposed to support such a proposal. It was true that the measures which he had suggested were very different from those which were ultimately adopted, but, although he had laboured, ineffectually, to introduce such alterations into the existing law as would have rendered it, in his opinion, acceptable to the country, he had been disposed to think that this imperfect measure was better than none at all. Even still, he 1368 rejoiced that the principle of a provision for the relief of the poor was implanted in the institutions of the country, because he felt assured that it never could be eradicated, and that it would work out its own amendment. It was, therefore, as a friend to the principle of a Poor-law, and not as an antagonist—that he asked for such modifications of the present law as would make it a blessing instead of a curse, to the people of Ireland.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Eliot,_3rd_Earl_of_St_Germans ( Chief Secretary 1841-45)

1372 Heads of expenditure, during the year 1842, taken on an average of the returns from thirty-three unions, the workhouses of which contained 14,741 inmates, average in each house 477—

Cost of maintenance and clothing of paupers, charged upon the electoral divisions	£2,033	8	6
Ditto, charged upon the union at large	327	8	8
Total	£2,360	17	2

It had been said that the salaries formed the main part of the Poor-law expenditure, so far from it he should show how fallacious that was—

Salaries of officers and servants, including masters, matron, &c	£353	3	5
Instalment of workhouse loans repaid	190	14	10
Other articles charged upon the establishment, furniture, &c.	952	2	7½
Total	£3,856	18	0½.

so that the whole average annual expenditure for each of the unions having been 3,856l. 18.s O½d. the salaries of officers and servants being 353l. was therefore about ten per cent., or 2s. in the pound, or l¼.in the shilling. The other charges being about 952l., about 25 per cent., or about 5s. in the pound, or about 3d. in the shilling; thus the total cost of these thirty-three unionsin 1842 amounted to 127,248l.; the net annual value of rateable property in these thirty-three unions was4,630,465l.; average in each union 140,317l.; there-fore the expenditure, namely, 3,856l., had averaged 23¼. per cent, on the valuation, or 7d. in the pound. There were 130 unions in Ireland; the workhouses when finished would contain 93,960 inmates, giving an average for each house of 723. At present, however, the average in each union was only 447 inmates supported at a cost of 3,856l., the 130 unions averaging the same number of inmates, would be 501,280l. assuming the total net value of rateable property in Ireland at 14,375,323/. the cost therefore of 130 unions, averaging 447 inmates, would average 3¾. per cent, on the entire valuation, or about nine-pence farthing in the pound. The annual cost of each union averaging 723 inmates (the highest average) would be 5,291l.; cost of 130 unions, at the same rate 687,830l.; assumed total net value of rateable property in Ireland, 14,375,323l.; therefore the 1373 costof 130 unions, averaging 723 inmates would be 4¾.per cent, on the entire valuation, about 1d. in the pound, pretty nearly the point at which it had been fixed by Mr. Nicholls, whose original estimate had not thus been wide of the mark.

The total number of paupers in 93 workhouses, in January, 1843, amounted to 35,112, consisting of the following classes:—

Men	7,134
Women	11,543
Boys under 15	7,881
Girls under 15	0,669
Infants under 2	1,885

The number of workhouses declared fit for reception was 110, and multiplying this number (110) by 723, the highest average number of paupers in each house and that would give the amount of workhouse accommodation now available at 79,530 paupers. The cost of maintenance and clothing per head, per week, including hospital diet, in the two Dublin unions, was 2l 2¾d. in Edenderry, 1s.10¼d. Castlederg, 1s. 8½d. Strabane, 1s. 11d.; Omagh, 1s. 9d. The annual cost of each pauper, at 2s.; per week, would be 5l. 4s. He held in his hand a small statement to show how much the poor-house had acted as a relief at periods of great pressure and distress. He was persuaded that these establishments had proved of the greatest benefit in Ireland, and he was sustained in this view of the case by a reference to the number accommodated in the months in which the pressure on the following population was the greatest. The noble Lord then read the following statement, showing the numbers in the workhouses increased during the season of pressure in July and August, and lessened as the distress subsided. The number in

May was	20,530
June	23,389
July	28,236
August	29,570
September	22,536
October	21,564

So that, without overflowing the work- 1374 houses, it was clear that they did afford an asylum to large numbers of people in the very exigence of distress. The workhouse test, then, had been applied with great advantage. Men would rather go into the house than starve; yet the Irish labourer would not go in when he could possibly gain a livelihood otherwise; and this was just the result contemplated and desired

It was not necessary, on the present occasion, to advert to the history of the passing of the measure in that House, but he would remind the hon. Gentleman, that to the principle of the measure no objection had been urged. Upon the second reading of the bill, in 1838, no division took place, and the majority which objected to the third reading of that measure, which afterwards became the law, was very inconsiderable. He thought that there was no man who looked back to the state of Ireland some years ago, who read the reports of the commissioners of poor inquiry, and read the works of travellers in Ireland—he thought there was no man who had listened to what had been said or read what had been written on the subject, but must be convinced that it was the duty of the House and of Parliament to interpose with some provision for the destitute poor of Ireland

He did not agree with the hon. Gentleman in his proposition respecting out-door relief—he believed that the providing of out-door relief would be fatal in its consequences, and ultimately destroy the property of the country. The hon. Gentleman entirely mistook the object of the poor-law; it was not to prevent poverty, but to prevent the possibility of any individual dying of want, and the only test 1377 that it was practicable to apply was that which had been found to work well in that country (England), and which he maintained had been successfully applied in Ireland

He would not fatigue the House by reading extracts from the papers which had been laid before the House on that subject; but there was one which the hon. Gentleman had made it necessary for him to refer to, namely—the report of the commissioners of Poor-law inquiry in 1836. It would appear that they objected to the workhouse system in Ireland, and he was ready to concede that to the hon. Gentleman; but what did they say:— We have shown by our second report that the institutions existing in Ireland for the relief of the poor are houses of industry, infirmaries, fever hospitals, lunatic asylums, and dispensaries—and the establishment of these, except as to lunatic asylums, is not compulsory, but dependent upon public subscriptions, or the will of grand juries—that there are but nine houses of industry in the whole country—that while the provision made for the sick poor in some places is extensive, it is in other places wholly inadequate, and that there is no general provision made for the aged and impotent, and the destitute. Much is certainly given in Ireland in private charity, but it is not given in any organised system of relief, and the abundant alms which are bestowed in particular by the poorer classes unfortunately lead, as we have already observed, to encourage mendicancy with its attendant evils. Upon the best consideration which we have been enabled to give to the whole subject, we think that a legal provision should be made for rates levied as hereinafter mentioned for the relief and support of incurable as well as curable lunatics, of idiots, epileptic persons, cripples, deaf and dumb and blind poor, and all who labour under permanent bodily infirmities, such relief and support to be afforded within the walls of public institutions. He confessed he could not see the difference.

On the most moderate computation, the amount of spontaneous alms given in Ireland, chiefly by the smaller farmers and cottiers, was from 1,000,000l. to 2,000,000l. sterling annually; but, being given without system or without inquiry, the good and the bad, the really destitute and the pretenders to destitution, receive alike their maintenance out of the earnings of the industrious, to the great impoverishment, and to the great injury of the good morals, and good order of the kingdom. It appeared to him, therefore, that un; less there was something like a workhouse J test, out-door relief would be like the allowance system in England; and if the hon. Gentleman went into committee on the question, he would find that such difference of opinion existed on the subject, that it would be utterly impossible I that the committee could agree in recommending that system which he thought i best adapted to the people of Ireland. The object of the law was very distinctly) pointed out by that report of Mr. Nicholls, to which the hon. Gentleman had referred. Mr. Nicholls said the Poor-law was not to prevent poverty, or to to provide work for the able-bodied, but simply to afford relief to the aged, impotent, and infirm poor. It was upon that understanding, and with a full knowledge of the objects and intentions of the Government, that the House had sanctioned the measure of 1838. It appeared to him, that the effect of a committee of inquiry would be to shake the confidence of the people of Ireland in the stability of the law, and that if a committee was appointed, the collection of any future rate would be almost impossible. It would be supposed, that the intention of Parliament as to the system of valuation had been misunderstood, and that there was a disposition on the part of Government to abandon its provisions. Further than that, he conceived that if the hon. Gentleman were to succeed in appointing that com- 1379 mittee of inquiry, it would necessarily appear futile and absurd on the part of the Government, to introduce at the same time a bill for the amendment of the law, while a committee was inquiring into and reporting upon its operations. Even should the hon. Gentleman succeed in obtaining his committee of inquiry, he doubted very much whether, with the difference of opinion that prevailed among the Irish Members of that House, as to the operation of the law, he would be able to come to any report upon the evidence before the end of the Session, and the only effect of the committee would be to add another blue book to the immense collection of evidence which crowded the library of that House. He thought it a more becoming course, that the Government, on its own responsibility, should bring in a measure which they thought best calculated to meet the circumstances of the case—which would remedy the existing defects, and when that measure was under the consideration of the House, it would then be for the hon. Gentleman either to suggest such modifications as it would be the duty of her Majesty's Government to adopt, or on their own parts to propose such alterations in the bill as might seem to them desirable. He hoped that when the measure of her Majesty's Government had been matured, that it would tend greatly to obviate the necessity of any such motion as the hon. Gentleman contemplated, which he should, therefore, most decidedly oppose, and which he now called upon the House to reject.